Wayne Super, managing director of capital markets at Cisco Capital, interviewed by Jon Fales for The Alta Group Podcast series, says artificial intelligence (AI), the internet of things (IoT) and machine learning are…” all coming together with blockchain,” in this 39-min. podcast.

Podcast Transcript

Jon: Hi and welcome to “The Alta Group Podcast,” I’m your host Jon Fales. And today, we’ll be talking about something that has been in the headlines a lot recently, blockchain, which is the underlying technology for bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. My guest today is Wayne Super, Managing Director of Capital Markets for Cisco Systems Capital.

Wayne is recognized as a subject matter expert by the Equipment Financing Industry and spoke about blockchain at the 2017 ELFA annual convention in Orlando. As you’ll hear during our podcast, there’s a lot more to blockchain than just cryptocurrencies. Hello Wayne, this is Jon, how are you doing?

Wayne: I’m doing very well Jon, thank you, and real pleasure to be here with you.

Jon: Well, thank you, it’s good to have you on. Seems like we’ve done this once before. I’ll tell this on myself that we’ve already recorded a blockchain conversation, but the recording app I was using was not employed properly, so we’re getting a chance to do it again. So Wayne, thank you very much for your indulgence on this.

Wayne: Not a problem, just consider it practice.

Jon: Actually it’s funny though, serendipity in a way because since we did the last recording, there has just been a wave of news about bitcoin. And we’ll be talking a little bit about the differences between bitcoin and blockchain during the call, so we’ve got some new updates I guess.

Wayne: Sure.

Jon: Okay, look, why don’t we just begin at the basics. You had given a presentation at the Equipment Leasing Finance Association Convention earlier this year about blockchain. So for the people that didn’t get a chance to see that or are still new to blockchain, how about just defining what exactly it is?

Wayne: Sure, I’ll be more than happy, so blockchain is best known as an enabler for cryptocurrency at this point, and you know, you mentioned earlier bitcoin is one of those cryptocurrencies. Blockchain specifically is not a cryptocurrency, blockchain is specifically a distributed method of transferring and tracking value as an ongoing list of transactions or records, and those are called blocks when they’re all put together.

Now, these blocks are essentially cryptographically linked and validated in a peer-to-peer network, which makes it virtually impossible to alter the data on any single block without altering the data on all of the previous and subsequent blocks as well. And these records are replicated in thousands of computers around the world. It’s a distributed shared ledger with privacy and operating consensus.

And blockchain’s cryptography essentially addresses two of the industry’s biggest concerns, which is trust and security, and this is why the technology is interesting for more than just cryptocurrency such as bitcoin, or ethereum, or Litecoin.

Jon: You know, blockchain’s got lots of potential which we’re gonna be talking about soon. Was blockchain or was bitcoin and cryptocurrencies the first manifestation, the first major use of blockchain technology or were there others before that?

Wayne: Well, you know, bitcoin was the world’s known first cryptocurrency used on blockchain, although one could argue there were other cryptocurrencies that preceded it that weren’t blockchain based. You know, your airline frequent flyer miles can be considered cryptocurrency, your American Express, you know, points that you earn, or hotel value points, or frequent stay points, those are all considered cryptocurrencies as well. But the difference between bitcoin and those cryptocurrencies are two-fold.

One is that it’s not…these cryptocurrencies don’t run across a blockchain technology. And secondly, these particular cryptocurrencies are only useful in value to you and redeemable to the corporation or company that gave you those points or cryptocurrency, to begin with. And they are the sole arbiters of what its value is, and how much you can redeem them for, and when you can redeem them, and the rules, and all of that, which you agreed to when you accept their agreement to use those points.

Jon: If you look at the underlying technology under the bitcoin and cryptocurrency is blockchain, what is it that blockchain will let us do that we don’t do today, or don’t do well today?

Wayne: Well, one is that… You know, four things. One is the shared ledger piece, which is all parties to the ledger have the same original data and subsequent information and updates, that’s one of the things that is really critical and important about blockchain. Secondly, it’s privacy, so it’s a permission ledger and developers decide who can see what and how much. And then there’s consensus, all parties of the blockchain ecosystem have to agree on a network verified transaction. And then, you know, the trust and security piece which is transaction data is cryptographically linked and validated through those peer-to-peer networks. So those are four really key things.

There are other things that are important about it too, and you know, the first blockchain network that bitcoin has run over is essentially…is a public blockchain, which you know, anybody can conduct transactions over, and anyone can mine for bitcoin; which is the process of helping to produce bitcoins. And then the private blockchains are the ones that are being set up by corporations with limited members and parties that all agree on consensus basis to operate as an ecosystem.

Jon: Do you think over time the private or the public blockchains are gonna end up being bigger?

Wayne: You know, that’s interesting because it’s really…there’s not gonna be one blockchain, you know, there’s gonna be multiple blockchains. For every ecosystem that’s set up with a consortium of companies that wanna operate in their own ecosystem, you know, there could be hundreds or thousands of them potentially and lots of overlap. I think the growth…this is my opinion, but I think the growth of private blockchain is where a lot of the action is going to be.

I mean bitcoin, you know, the cryptocurrencies, the public blockchain is being used, you have a lot of press right now. And you know, what defines private versus public, there could be some blurring of the lines in some areas when you get into the consortium type blockchains. But I think the private is where a lot of the action is gonna be. Even if bitcoin or all those cryptocurrencies were to just crash and burn and go away, the technology behind it is so interesting and useful and gaining traction, in the corporate and government sectors.

Jon: Yeah, I went to the LendIt Conference in New York earlier in the year, I think it was in March, and one of the big speeches I heard was a Chinese company that was using blockchain as part of its logistics process, its supply chain, which let them use smaller companies they might not have used otherwise. And also unexpectedly it sped up payment to these companies, which made a big, big difference if you’re a small company waiting for payment. From what you’ve seen what companies are beginning to invest in, and research blockchain?

Wayne: Well, if you think about the… There’s really, I would say several areas that a lot of investment is coming from or going into. So you have, you know, what they call the Blocktech where the financial services landscape where there’s lots of startups going on, and applications and solutions development as well as middleware services, and also infrastructure, and base protocols. Then you have several of those that are actually startups with ICOs, initial coin offerings, or cryptocurrency type offerings to support them.

And then you have the big financial services, you know, the who’s who, you know, the Visas, the Wells Fargo’s, the Citi Banks, you name, and many of them are getting involved in blockchain R&D and also making investments. And many of those smaller companies that are starting up as well. And then you have the big corporates, the technology companies such as Cisco the company that I work for, as well as IBM, and many others around the world.

And then what we’re finding is lots of partnerships going on or joint development going on between, for instance, the financial world and the tech companies, and the financial world and the startups. You know, if you really think about it…and if you’re a financial services company or a bank, you know, you’re looking at where your competition is coming from. And the real smart ones are realizing their competition is not coming from another bank it’s gonna come from alternative ways of moving money, or creating money, or creating processes.

So if they are able to adopt these processes within their own environments, and do the right partnerships, they can reduce the cost of transactions, they could reduce…they could create transaction fluidity, they could increase the speed of transactions. And all of that would be to the benefit of their customers. So they can keep themselves in the middle even though a bank is considered a middleman in many transactions. If you think about blockchain its real principal use is to get rid of middlemen or processes, you know, where middlemen are involved.

Jon: You know, I was just thinking about this as you were talking, you’re in an interesting position right now because you’re working with a tech company that’s heavily researching blockchain, you’re also in financial services which is gonna be one of the biggest industry users of it. How do you spend your time when you get involved in blockchain issues at Cisco right now?

Wayne: Well, in the previous few years it was very theoretical blockchain, yes, it’s been around since the first bitcoin offering back in like 2007, 2006, 2007, 2008, those early 2000s. And over the last couple years, it was like, okay, what are the use cases or applications that this technology can be used for, very few. So, when it comes this…that’s how I spent my time, it was really working with those within the Cisco organization that were either involved in R&D or in the business development organization, which is where a lot of the M&A activity and partnerships are developed.

So we spent a lot of time looking at use cases in the marketplace and how does blockchain, how can it relate to Internet of Things, cloud, artificial intelligence, machine learning, these are all things that are coming together let’s say and that many companies are making their state at certain sectors. I’ll give you an example, IBM, they’re betting on cloud computing and blockchain, you know, Cisco is betting on Internet of Things, artificial intelligence, and networking, and then layering in blockchain technology behind that in places that it makes sense.

And then you know, we’re looking at where I work within Cisco Capital, how do we leverage this technology so that Cisco Capital can provide the right types of offerings to our customers. And not only just offerings, and how to use that for operational efficiencies and also manage the proper level of security providence, authentications, transactions, and so forth.

Jon: Where do you see the opportunity for improving operational efficiencies using blockchain?

Wayne: Gosh, if you look up…in order to answer that question I think maybe it’s good to talk about first, what are the particular use cases that are out there. And then within that, you know, we could probably pick one or two to see…you know, dig deep into if you want to, or if we have time to. But if you look at the potential use cases in the financial services industry, you know, the lower hanging fruit is really the consumer-facing piece. Which is you know, loans and mortgages, and digital wallets, exchanges of payments, payment transfers, things like that.

That’s the easy stuff, and there’s, you know, hundreds of millions and billions of people that could benefit from this, there’s billions of potential users. And then as you move kind of up the chain to B2B services, and then next, it would be a trading at capital markets, and after that, you know, back-end processes, and then inter-industry, intermediaries. As you kind of move up the complexity…up the chain, the complexity increases and the number of players decrease.

So you know, we will look at inter-industry intermediaries at the top of the heap in terms of complexity you’re talking about, you know, clearing networks for international transfers. If you talk about backend processes you’re talking about IT and business re-engineering within not only financial services but also within standard corporations. Blockchain has the potential to replace all traditional IT platforms if you really wanna think about it.

If you move back down the stack into trading in capital markets, you know, bond issuances, bond trading, syndicated loans, clearing and settlements, asset ownership. For instance, my understanding, the country of Ecuador has actually put in place a blockchain technology in order to manage land title. So the providence of title, the ownership is indelible at that point and it can’t be changed.

And if you go into capital markets back into that or you go into… I’m sorry B2B services, you have insurance, and payments, trusts, escrows, filings, many different processes within each of those areas can be made more efficient given that you have a distributed ledger and all parties have the same information. And they get it simultaneously in their processes.

Jon: I mean, really, in the long run, you’re talking about a fundamental redefinition of what we’re doing as an industry aren’t you?

Wayne: Potentially, I mean, you know, I kind of joke with my friends, I’ll probably be taking my dirt birth by the time that happens. But we’re gone beyond theory and talk now, and you know, as we’re seeing bitcoin has gone mainstream, blockchain is becoming mainstream in terms of the conversation. And the amount of money that’s pouring into it from an investment standpoint, and there are a lot of applications that are being developed that actually do work today.

As I was preparing for the ELFA Conference there was, you know, a whole list of…I went and researched a whole list of companies that are doing things around blockchain. There are three in the banking world, they’re building operating systems for the financial markets with distributed ledger platforms. You have, you know, a Coinbase which buys and sells digital currencies. I happen to have a Coinbase account that’s where you can buy and sell bitcoin and convert it into all sorts of fiat currency, and back and forth.

Jon: Are you announcing your retirement this week?

Wayne: No, no, no, I didn’t buy enough in the past to retire on but, you know, everybody thought there was a bubble when it was you know, $50, $100, $200, $500, $1,000, $5,000 and now $17,000. It’s been a bubble for a long time, so you know, I’m not announcing my retirement anytime soon.

But you know, you have cybersecurity companies, KSI technologies, what I find interesting is academia, there’s a company called Blockcerts, it’s an open initiative for blockchain certificates in education and academia. I’m not talking about getting a certificate in blockchain, but it’s essentially…you can do your education get your certificates or your diploma, or all of those things it’ll be managed without having to have all kinds of intermediaries do it for you, and so many interest of schools there.

Voting via blockchain, and there’s a company called Follow My Vote. Car leasing and sales that sort of… IBM is looking at standing up some products and services that they wanna sell to the auto industry. And then there’s network, again in other words, you know, a small company called Filament, they deploy long-range wireless networks anywhere via blockchain. And then things as mundane as forecasting, Augur is a company that, you know, if data goes into…and as your corporation manages itself and builds up that huge database in the cloud. It can take that data and use it and then use the blockchain technology to help finance and other types of sales forecasting.

And music and entertainment rights, and IP rights, ride sharing, stock trading, real estate, insurance, I can go on and on, and on, healthcare, supply chain management. There are companies springing up all over the place around these things: energy management, sports management, and loyalty programs.

You know, perhaps now your Delta miles, and United miles, and hotel points can be interchangeable because the blockchain could assign the right trading values for exchanges between them. And you know, create a market of all of these little digital currencies. So it’ a really interesting set of use cases and I’m just scratching the surface here, I can go on for the rest of this call just naming different types of companies that are developing in this area.

Jon: Man, how do you stay on top of all this stuff Wayne?

Wayne: Well, there’s a plethora of information not just on the Web, but of course, there’s a lot of people out there consulting and doing R&D, and I just make sure I insinuate myself into that and join the right associations, and make sure I stay abreast of it. I mean, what I stay abreast of is probably really just a strategic aspect of it, but there are a lot of people out there who are taking that strategic and converting it into real work through their consulting best practices.

You have the big four, they’re starting up practices or have already started practices in blockchain and are advising their corporate clients. So you know, there are many avenues to stay abreast of blockchain.

Jon: I know we certainly made an investment this past year with Patricia Vorhees, who’s focused most of her time on all this. Let me go back to something you said earlier with reference to what you’re doing at Cisco. You’re talking about Cisco’s focus on using blockchain with the Internet of Things, it strikes me that as a lessor there’s a very strong rapid movement to pay per use, managed service, financing, things like that. It would seem to me that IoT data would be integral to effectively offering that, and you should probably be right in the middle of that, aren’t you?

Wayne: Yeah, and I can’t talk too much about what I do know around that area because there’s a lot of proprietary information. But you know, staying at the high level, you know, yes, I mean, when you talk about Internet of Things, Cisco is…this is a big bet of Cisco’s. And so as we look at utility and usage and data analytics, it’s not just the IoT and the data, it’s the artificial intelligence and machine learning that helps us extract those nuggets of value out of that data, so that good decisions can be made in real time.

Jon: That’s such an exciting field, a really neat marriage of all the different technologies. You know, gosh, I remember 18 months ago, I was talking with an industry executive, and I asked him if his company was looking at blockchain at all, and he gave me a blank look and said, “What’s blockchain?” I know for a fact that very few executives would say that anymore. But you go to industry events, if you had to say or take a snapshot right now, what other companies are doing, seeing, researching, what do you see people doing today with blockchain?

Wayne: So in terms of their industries?

Jon: Yeah, I mean, specifically in the financial services since that’s most of our listeners.

Wayne: So, in financial services, well…here’s a couple of really I think interesting things. One is, you know, the banking capital markets obviously the whole idea of, you know, of the DTCC (The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation)

You know, they play the role of the clearing agent and settlements. So the DTCC has put together a consortium of its major bank clients, and they are trying to use blockchain to supplant the whole current electronic platform that…the traditional electronic platform they’re using today.

And by doing so, you know, keep themselves obviously in the position of being a clearinghouse, but now they can do it really fast and really cheap compared to what they’re doing today. And you know, banks and other financial services, so much of it operates in such a tight regulatory framework that it actually creates the need for those middlemen. And those middlemen have come up because of that regulatory framework.

The regulatory framework is not going away, but what is happening is that we’re seeing more and more of the regulators embracing or looking at blockchain as a viable option to help create that layer of regulation, and security, and connectedness that’s necessary. So well, you know, there’ll be some middlemen that will disappear because it will be completely automated, there’ll still be some middlemen there that have to operate the whole platform. So we see that as an example.

There are several examples of security trading platforms such as NASDAQ, the Australian Stock Exchange, Japan Exchange, Korea Exchange, Deutsche Exchange, Moscow, London, India’s National Exchange, and there’s a few others, that are currently putting proof of concepts in place, or have proof of concepts in place for digital trading of assets.

And there’s also been some experimentation with bond issuances. And if you were…one big example is the Daimler, 100 million euro bond issuance called a Schuldschein, which was essentially automated digitally through a blockchain network. And that was the $100 million actual issuance and my understanding is they’re going back to do it again. So there’s definitely a lot of work being done in that area.

Also cross-border payments, it’s more still of a concept because cross-border payments, there’s so much regulatory frameworks, multi-jurisdiction of regulatory frameworks in play there, you know, that’s a complicated one to work through. But if that’s successful it’ll literary eliminate the central banks of each country where there’s a… Like for instance, if you convert USD to Yen and Yen to USD, it’ll eliminate the bank of Japan and US Federal Reserve from the whole transaction, or the need for them to be in the middle of it.

So you have that, then you have credit default swaps, there’s been some proof of concepts done there. And then two areas that I think are really cool that I’d love to see but I haven’t gotten examples of it yet, are syndicated lending, and also equipment leasing end to end, from the beginning…you know, from originations all the way through return of equipment, or a closure and servicing, and ending of a loan contract.

I think in those particular markets like syndicated lending as well as equipment leasing, because the process is so wide and large, you’ll see individual pieces of it get addressed by blockchain. You know, if you look at lending, perhaps one of the low hanging pieces of fruit might be the equipment inventory, when inventory is returned or resold, inventory is refurbished, or you know, brokered equipment.

You might see, you know, the whole documentation through signature process go beyond just sending a doc out electronically and getting it signed by DocuSign. You might see that go through a blockchain smart contract instead, which eliminates signatures altogether, you’re basically transacting over the blockchain in a verifiable network.

Jon: So that’s a smart contract manifestation?

Wayne: Yes, smart contract, exactly. And that’s really the secret sauce, you know, for leasing and other contract-based models is that smart contract. And you’ll see bits and pieces of that overall end to end process be addressed through blockchain to one day as the whole thing, will go seamlessly over the blockchain or several blockchains.

Jon: You know, I was speaking with a couple of lawyers one in particular, and you know, who you are Paul Bent, but we were talking about the use of smart contracts in leasing agreements. And Paul is one of many large ticket leasing experts, and he was very skeptical about the use of these things anytime soon, soon I guess in the next three to five years. A lot of the things that you’ve been talking about some of them will happen pretty quickly I would think. But isn’t a lot of this, you know, three, five, seven years down the road, as the technology picks up steam?

Wayne: Yeah, you know, some of those proof cases that I was talking about earlier that I talked about are easier to tackle, and others are more complicated. Obviously, the complicated ones will take longer to get…before it becomes ubiquitous, you know, and just broadly used.

If you think about it, there are… When I was ending the presentation at ELFA, I had eight categories of final thoughts, and the conversion rate and adoption rate are one of them. Like how fast will the uptake be, it will be different for different industries and different processes. You know, in the financial services industry I think it will take… I think parts of our industry, you’ll see the adoption pretty quickly, especially the consumer, that’s a straightforward and easy comparatively speaking.

But as you go up that stack of complexity as I alluded to earlier, it’s so complex it could take longer and it requires regulators to be involved. It’s multi-jurisdictional, and you know, there are just so many companies that could be in an ecosystem. You know, the regulatory framework…you know, every country and every environment, regulatory environment’s a little different. And then, of course, you’ve got the global like, Basel, you know, and will they embrace it. And then you have lots of blockchains all over the place, what about the interoperability of those, supposedly can be interoperable.

And then privacy versus transparency, you know, in the public blockchain you’ve got ultimate privacy, and you know, you don’t even know who it is on the other end that might be buying something from you’re transacting. Whereas in a public or consortium it’s, you must know, and especially banking and other regulated areas, where you’ve gotta know your customer. You gotta…you know, the KYC, the AML and all those things that go on require you to know your customer.

So it becomes the blockchain technology that was used for privacy and is gonna take away part of that balance. And you know, will there be standardization, you know, does there need to be standardization if blockchains are interoperable? Those are things that are gonna be battled. And then finally ethics, you know, the whole ethics around it, you know, certain uses, because we all know that right now, for instance, bitcoin is utilized on the dark web to do pretty bad stuff or to pay for very bad stuff.

But at the same time, it enables lots of good stuff, things that are productive and useful for society as well. So you know, those things are gonna come with a balance which is way beyond my pay grade, because I’m neither a philosopher, a lawyer, or an ethicist.

Jon: But you may become all of them down the road here as you get more involved in this. You know, I was thinking another possible impediment is something a little bit more esoteric and it’s been in the news lately, is power consumption. There was a story in, “The Wall Street Journal” today that quoted somebody as saying that the amount of electricity consumed to do these problem-solving, and so forth, is equal to the annual power consumption of Denmark. I don’t know where they got that figure, but there’s no question.

In fact, I had dinner last week with a guy that runs a little ISP near where I live, and he was a data miner for a while, and he said the power consumption was so high it wasn’t worth the bitcoin compensation he was getting so he bailed out. Do you see that as a possible impediment?

Wayne: Yeah, in fact, tongue in cheek I read an article just a week ago this guy says, “I haven’t paid for heat in three years.” You know, and he lives in Raleigh, he’s a miner, he showed his setup, he actually got a bunch of fans to keep his machines cool, but he hasn’t had to pay for heat in his apartment for the last three winters. Because the machines have kept his entire apartment warm. That’s how much power…consumption of heat that his system throws off.

But you know, it’s one of those dilemmas, right, so it’s kind of like the same dilemma you have with electric cars, are we gonna consume more…you know, consume more energy when every car in the market is electric and you gotta power your car off the grid, the electrical grid which is gonna ramp up the amount of, you know, consumption and wattage usage. Or are you gonna use more fossil fuel, you know, in terms of the energy output from the fossil fuel?

So you know, until we find a way to make everything solar it’s not gonna be free, and the amount of usage is gonna matter. So electric cars are not renewable energy, gasoline cars are not renewable energy. And bitcoin certainly if it’s powered by non-renewable energy, you have another thing is what happens like you have a major, you know, world you know, grid meltdown and now everything is turned off for a while, you have no money, or your processes come to an end.

So if everything is digital that’s the opposite argument, which is if everything goes digital and we lose power for a while then nothing works, nothing transpires; especially if even the backups go down. So that’s another problem for the major world players who, you know, chart our existence.

Jon: Stuff that we never even thought about and here we are. Hey, listen gosh, we’ve talked about a lot, we talked about blockchain, we talked a little bit about how it evolved, what the differences are between it and bitcoin, a lot about where blockchain is today and where it’s going, a lot of the many applications. If listeners want to find out more about blockchain, what would be some of your suggestions in terms of books, websites, and so forth?

Wayne: Sure, so if somebody is like, “What is blockchain?” That they wanna understand what it is, there’s a couple places that they should go first. First is to go to, “TED Talk” there’s a couple good “Ted Talks,” Don Tapscott does a really good one, and his son also is part of his practice, so you might find him either on the web or blogging.

Also if you really wanna understand bitcoin and how it’s related to blockchain and get a primer of blockchain, it’s probably on Amazon. It was on Netflix many, many years ago, I don’t know if it’s there anymore. But if you’re subscribing to Netflix or Amazon Prime, it’s called, “The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin,” it’s dated now. In fact, when you look at it you’re gonna go, “Oh wow, boy, that was just back in 2015, 2014.” It seems like ages ago but it still gives you a really good understanding of bitcoin, blockchain.

And it talks about the ethics and regulatory dilemma as well, you know, when you have a currency that’s unattached to any government. As example, if you wanna, you know, take all your money and put it in bitcoin you could leave the country basically, and not worry about anybody hitting you up with a $10,000 limit. But you know, it talks about all that as well.

There’s quite a few blogs on it as well, I’m trying to remember some good blogger names, they escape me right now. And then, you know, head on off to even your local library or Barnes & Noble, there are lots of bitcoin either books or primers or even more advanced stuff if you wanna get into blockchain, or bitcoin mining, or coding, or blockchain coding, we even have books on that.

Which leads me to kind of a bunny trail, you know, a couple of years ago there was…and still to this day, there is a shortage of blockchain coders, so they come at a high price right now for people that want to code and do blockchain. So your resources are very expensive at least until it becomes so ubiquitous and mainstream that it becomes something taught in the universities, and people are you know, leaving with degrees and coding of that subject. So there’s a lot out there, there’s quite a bit.

Jon: Wow, I know I’ve read that Tapscott wrote a book called, “The Blockchain Revolution,” which is a good entry level book too, I think. All right, well, look, we’ll post those on our website when we put the podcast out. Any parting thoughts, Wayne, this has been a terrific talk and appreciate your time.

Wayne: Yeah, it’s just kind of a…maybe it’s the wrong word, but kind of an irony, I mean, when you think about blockchain, the rise of blockchain as a viable technology really couldn’t have happened if it weren’t for, you know, three major things. First, having a network evolved. Way back in the early days, networks were peer-to-peer because it was only one computer on one end, one computer in the other.

And they’ve evolved since then to all sorts of different things like hub and spoke, token ring, you know, and then you have the network, and now everything is peer-to-peer again. But now you’ve got all this capacity, and all this bandwidth, and the commercialization of the Internet, and all these things really made it possible for blockchain to become something. Or once somebody developed that distributed ledger technology, it couldn’t have come at a better time, because of how the network and Internet has evolved.

So we can thank that for happening, and that we live in a very interesting time with this development and the convergence of blockchain, IoT, cloud, artificial intelligence, and machine learning. It’s all coming together, and some really interesting thing is gonna be taking place in our lifetime.

Jon: No question about that, and just like the Internet enabled things that we never dreamed of years ago, the blockchain technology I know is gonna do the same thing, we’re already starting to see some of those right now. All right Wayne, thank you, I really appreciate your time especially doing it a second time, but we got a couple of new topics on this podcast.

Wayne: Excellent, well, it’s my pleasure and good luck with the posting when you get done with it.

Jon: Thank you very much, really enjoyed talking with you.

Wayne: Bye, take care.

Jon: You too.

Wayne: Bye.

Jon: For more information on blockchain, please visit our website, thealtagroup.com for links to some of the resources Wayne mentioned during the podcast. Our podcasts are available on Apple podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn, and from our website. If you’d like periodic updates of interest on the equipment financing industry, please join The Alta Groups LinkedIn page, and follow us on Twitter at thealtagroupllc. Thanks for listening.

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